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I have a commission to build a guitar to be tuned in 5ths, i.e. with open string tuning of C, G, D, A, E, B if possible. The client is aware that reaching the high B on an open string will be a challenge and is willing to accept a lower pitch highest string. To get as close as I can, I will do a fan fret configuration with about a 1.5" difference maximum difference in scale lengths between the low and high strings. At the moment I am trying to determine optimal scale lengths while considering that the client wants to use strings that are readily available so the lightest gauge string will probably be .007" and he doesn't want the low C to be too sloppy.

Has anyone had any experience in building or setting up a guitar to be tuned in 5ths that can give me some guidance? My current thinking is that since there's no real limit on getting thick strings (for the low C) and I've read that playing a guitar tuned in 5ths can stretch the fingers, it seems logical to build a guitar with a short scale even for the low C, say around 24.5" that just gets even shorter (due to the fan fretting) for the higher strings. I haven't done any testing yet so don't know if a 7 gauge string with a 23" scale length will reach the high B.

Thoughts?

Pat

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Wow! That is going to be one interesting project!!! It is way beyond my pay grade but I will be watching for responses.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Pat ... if you want to see where a .007 gauge string will tune to B before breaking .. simply put one on a std guitar and put a capo at each fret as you tune the string up .. 23 inches is around the third fret I think on a 25.4 ... so start maybe at the 5th fret and then slide the capo back, and keep tuning up ...

As far as getting a low C from a 24.5 ... hmmm, it will be sloppy, and you will need a large gauge string too ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I have to do some experimenting with a capo as you suggest, Tony. Just reading around on the internet it appears that counter-intuitively (for me anyway) it's tough to get any string past a G# on a 25.4" scale guitar because the thinner strings break at lower tension. So apparently a 9 gauge string can be tuned just as high as a 7 gauge string. I'll have to try this out to see. I'm also already re-considering the longer scale length because of the C being too sloppy and thinking I should be more aggressive with the fanning. In the 8 string guitar I made there was a scale difference of 4 inches across the 8 strings (or 3 inches difference across any of the six strings) and the owner says the amount of fanning has never been an issue him or anyone that has tried the guitar. So perhaps scale lengths of 26" for the low C and 23" for the high B would work.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

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I've built Citterns tuned G d a e a' with a 21.5 inch scale length and it would allow tuning to b. A 25.4 scale allows a plain steel string to be tuned to g above the high e of standard guitar tuning. That is the highest open string tuning on a 12 string guitar, so my guess would be approximately 23 inches as the longest S.L. for the high b using plain (unwound) steel strings. For plain steel strings it doesn't matter the gauge - they all break at the same pitch, just at different tensions.
One reason for tuning Gdaea rather than Gdaeb is the strings harmonize better for chord work.
I built a 4 string guitar tuned CGda which worked well, but it had a 27 inch scale length.
If he would settle for nylon strings you might have more leeway.

another design possibility would be to move the nut of the lowest string the distance of one fret further down than the rest of the strings. It might look odd, but so do fanned frets.

With a capo on the 2nd fret, simulating close to a 23" scale, I got an 8 gauge string up to a B today. I almost got to a C before it broke.
Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Hi Pat,
As a quick and dirty test you might try capoing at the first fret and tuning DGdaea' (some string changes might be desirable - heavier low E and lighter b ) Having a forth interval on the top and bottom will make the design more workable and chord work much easier for the player (it will almost be an "open" tuning).

I also hope to hear more about how your project works out. One of my favorite guitarists, Carl Kress, always played guitars tuned in 5ths. One example, with an L-5, is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJD-jdU6DTw

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Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

Pat, Yikes that's a challenge.. I've built a Mandocello with fan frets 26.25 to 24.75 but I have no idea how you get that high string ?? I've seen people do 10 string Mandocellos/bouzoukis but again that last high string is an issue.. Sorry I can't be much help but you are correct the low C is doable in a number of ways depending on fan etc but I will be watching with interest how you hit the high note ... I've always thought a 10 string Octave Mando tuned CGDAE would be fun..

Kerry

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If you are less than a half step from the breaking point that doesn't leave much room for error. I'd be concerned about constantly breaking that string while playing. Does he have a soft touch?

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I think my client has almost decided to settle for an A instead of the B. As you point out Bryan, even with a 23" scale, going up to the B doesn't leave much room for error, although I only tried one string. I should try more. However he is also unsure of the the 3" difference in scale lengths. That's pretty aggressive fanning although, as I said in a earlier post, apparently not a problem for my previous client. I did want to show him what it took to get all six strings in 5ths and make that option available to him if that's what he really wanted.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

hi Pat, I coincidentally have a guitar tuned to 5ths at the moment to explore melodic possibility, it's tuned -
well 5 strings is enough to investigate and as you can see a double first E.
C G D A E E
56,45, 34, 22w, 12, 12
it's on a 25 inch scale
I have also capoed it at the 2nd fret and this is to allow me to more easily access the fingering possibility,
I have quite big hands and finger length and even at that I find loosing a couple of inches from the scale length allows
me to access all the scale possibility easily, maybe you could try this out with your customer.

"I think my client has almost decided to settle for an A instead of the B." " However he is also unsure of the the 3" difference in scale lengths. "

If you can also get him to opt for a low D rather than C, you can avoid the fan fret thing ( some people just don't like the idea), and not have too thick of a low string with a "tubby" sound. What type of music will he be playing?

I've been sending him print-outs of fret boards of various scale lengths. He doesn't seem concerned at all about fan fretting that isn't too extreme, in fact, I'm sure he wants some. He does recognize that tuned in 5ths might mean some finger stretching on the longer scales. The one time I saw him play he just sort of noodled around so I'm not sure what type of music he plays.

Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.